Replicant Psychology

I totally agree, they are either clones or grown from cells. I have never thought they were mechanical in any way. If you watch Luke Scott's [url=http://www.bladerunner2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/70]"LOOM"[/url] you get an idea of the technology they probably use use to grow Replicant parts.

OH WOW- Thanks Svanya! Yes, very interesting! This explains alot about creating a Replicant. Even Tyrell explained that a virus was always attacking their immune system and killing the subject. Makes me wonder how Tyrell eventually got around it, and why 4 years is the limit.

@liv_e_licious72; Here is the scene; [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJs4qJPQ_M]Blade Runner Movie CLIP - The Prodigal Son (1982) HD[/url]

Replicant psychology is fascinating. To only live four years and yet have memories from a child up to twenty or so years would certainly send some replicants around the bend, I am sure. A replicant such as Roy Batty had seen so much of life and was so intelligent; he had such a thirst for life and valued life more than a human would have. Rachael had never experienced love or even a kiss ( I presume ) until she met Deckard. Leon cherished photographs and memories, as did Deckard. To be a replicant and know you are a replicant would do your head in. Tyrell called the four year life span a safety device but most probably made many replicants more dangerous than if they had lived out natural life-spans. I know that if I was a replicant coming to the end of my life span I would be going bug-crazy trying to prolong my life.

I get the feeling that at many-a-time to keep tabs on their psycological health and managing the memory/continual memory uploading process that at key times they are 'requested' short of being ordered to 'go to sleep' as it were. During their sleeping process they are 'managed' and analyzed for continual usage/experimentation on or what-not. Then as they 'emerge' or wake-up from their slumber they are almost less foggy than they were seemingly moments ago. This is how I sense the implant proceedure is conducted and those at Tyrell Corp go about it.

"Prodigal Son" clip- Tyrell mentions that once DNA sequence is set there is [u]no going back[/u] to change anything. Trying to do so is what caused the deadly viruses. This keeps buzzing in the back of my head- Along "LOOM" track- Once Tyrell found the way to keep their immune system from crashing- what was to stop them from having a life span double or triple the average, if not forever? I have a feeling Tyrell knew this, embrased it, proud of his achievement. He was all about commerce. I can't imagine any sector of industry giving Trell a harder time than a National/Global Security organization. Such an indefinate life span could be a threat to mankind. I'm sure they would demand some sort of 'leash' regarding the possibility of Replicants coming to realize all their strengths then turning to enslave mankind. Also probably why Replicants were only used off world. The biggest mistake, I think, is- Imprinting [u]too much[/u] information beyond job description, duties etc... When each job was completed, their memories should have been erased and the next job specifications imprinted. The build up of memories, as Tyrell mentioned, is what eventually leads to emotional attatchments to those memories and emotional expressions. Tyrell couldn't help himself, "More Human Than Human" was his motto.

Albert West. . . If Roy had a thirst for life and valued it more than a human would have, Rachael never experienced love or a kiss, until metting Deckard and both Leon and Deckard cherished photograph/memories. . . What do you think Zora or Pris cherished? Sexual activities maybe? As they seem to be connected to very sexualized places, ways of behavior, things that they do, etc... Or maybe something else?

@HyperNova; There is a scene that was cut short, the one where Leon is talking to Deckard after he has shot Zora, in the street. Leon mentions an "Itch you can't scratch", he is referring to their needs and desires, like sexuality. It's almost like their thoughts torture them. I know there was a whole interview on what it all meant and why it was deleted but I can't find it. :(

Yes, I can see what you mean by that, Svanya. Makes sense... :-)

@ Svanya and HyperNova It would be so great if that interview "itch you can't scratch" could be found. Makes me wonder, if not imprinted to be a pleasure model, are they "chemically castrated" or otherwise fixed? Pris was imprinted to be a pleasure model. Imagine her memories; when her emotions began to come to the surface, she probably began to desire an emotional connection to all this sex. Humans certainly were not going to have a [u]relationship[/u] with a Replicant. Imagine the rejection and beatings. Also, when Pris began to understand how undesirable prostitution and sex-trafficking is on Earth, she must have been mad as hell, for all her intelligence to be used this way. Zora was imprinted to be a mercenary. Don't know much about her, I imagine her reasons for joining the rebellion are no different than Roy's. Zora was very smart and cautious- she got a job were women are put on display but immediatly forgettable once the show is over. I think she was just lying low.

Ironic for Zora, Lying low by being on public display for all to see! I guess this is Replicant thnking!

@ HyperNova Ironic? I don't know- Zora was pretty enough to get the job but she obviously wasn't trying to encourage a fan club following. It was the sort of place where news, rumor and gossip flow freely. Seems like an ideal place for a (female) combat mercenary to lay low, learn faces, and collect intel for Roy. Could very well have been a lead from Zora that sent Roy and Leon to the "Eye" man.

There are a lot of good questions raised in this thread. When I first saw Blade runner I was majoring in Biochem and when they began taking about repressor proteins to block the viral results of tampering with their set lifespan my ears perked up. Having read Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep, imagine my pleasant surprise to see Blade runner discussing the same technology that I was learning in classes! It was a very clever update to change from electronic androids to genetic ones and was connected to the advancement of science. Do Androids dream of electric sheep was written in the tale end of the electronic revolution, while Blade runner was produced in the genetic engineering phase of modern science, which has now been updated by discoveries of stem cell research. Secondly the critial main point in both Blade Runner and DADoES is what does it mean to be human and conscious? when we design a being capable of self consciousness from any technology, we are touching upon this question and this is central to what this story is about. The question is so important that Ridley Scott has agreed to revisit it my making a sequel. It is a cautionary tale of what will happen when mankind does finely overcome our ethical resistance to the use of genetic engineering and stem cell research as applied to the human matrix. When that is done, the possibilities will be frightening indeed. HG Wells once wrote a prescription for science fiction story writing. He said to apply a new futuristic idea to the human condition by placing humans into such a scenario and there you have the necessary elements to write a Sci Fi story. Plillip K Dick was a master of this genre especially in the area of psychology evidenced in both DADoES and The three stigmata of Palmer Elgridge, where the protagonists used a drug to enhance a virtual reality experience. I have always loved Blade Runner and do remember the scene where Leon caught up with Deckard and made the statement "Tough having an itch that you could never scratch." but never understood what he meant by that, although it wouldn't haven been included if it was irrelevant so it could well have the meaning suggested in this post.

Yes liv_e_licious72, it does seem, in hind-sight, where Zora could be gathering intel for Roy and Leon, to make there moves that they do. It's possible that that was the intention.

One more thing liv_e_licious72, psychology is at the heart of DADoES and Blade Runner - replicant, human either one and in the end they are the same. We all want the same things and ask the same questions out of life; why are we here, how long does our lives last, what is the purpose? All critical questions and are the big questions that Ridley Scott likes to address in his sci fi movies by his own admission in interviews. Its what lifts his movies above the level of simplified stories of the future or horror to the heights of questioning the human condition. Regarding Zora, yes she was most likely told to keep on the look out of useful intel by Roy Batty.

@Svanya Your post about empathy was interesting. (*The question that remains is why do the replicants lack empathy? Is it something that was done on purpose to make the replicants do tasks, that could not be easily asked of a regular human? Or was it a fault of some-type ...maybe related to personal mental issues with someone at Tyrell Corp, like J.F? Or was it really like Tyrell stated in the film, that they made the Nexus 6 as best as they could, at the time? The replicants non-ability to empathize, is likely the root-cause of the sudden-surges of violence that are seen from them when they become angered, or are threatened. Along with the fact they are born enslaved, objectified, & demeaned regularly. Also, asked to do things humans couldn't or wouldn't normally do.*) I keep having a hard time thinking that replicants were made that way on purpose. So many things about the replicants made them seem child-like (Roy and Leon interogating the "Eye Man" intimidating and dead serious yes but childlike-Roy telling Pris everyone is dead Roy acted just like an upset child.) Empathy is learned over time, all children are at first self absorbed with temper tantrums. Parents have to explain 50million times why this or that is wrong or hurt someone's feelings. We chastise them that they should feel bad and apoloogize. I doubt the replicants were redirected with care. Tyrell mentioned that replicants develop obsessions. A single mindedness that Roy embodies, 4 year life span = NOT FAIR! The whole rebellion is centered around this reaction. Inevitable really especially after they began making the military replicants ; above average intellect, combat conditioning and stratigic deduction in the hands of 4 year old mentality.

[center][/center]I'm happy to read that you found [url=http://www.bladerunner2-movie.com/community/forums/topic/395]my post interesting[/url]. =D Why the empathy test (sure-fire way to ID them)? Empathy is something they clearly lack (supposedly in all cases). They aren't given the opportunity to learn/develop it, nor is it something somehow embedded by technological means. An ability they aren't given either-way, & likely on purpose. The idea that they weren't redirected with care; still would likely be, from some-type of policy that they aren't human, & so don't direct them as such. An intentional policy of non-redirection (without care). However, with what I believe your issue is, I do agree it is a possibility that empathy cannot be simply pre-programmed, among other. And must be learned over a period of time, just maybe it finally is ...during the course of the film (by certain replicant characters). Did Roy empathize with Deckard (motive for stopping him from the fall)? Or was it just he didn't want to be alone when he died (afraid of the dark, like a dying child without God)? Maybe another reason they are given a limited-lifespan (also possibly restricted to only controlled-contact situations with humans) ...they might develop the ability to empathize, if given enough time, & experience (particularly on Earth when witnessing/or in extreme-hardship situations with others that can, for example). I believe that would make them much more difficult to control; especially, if they were designated for nasty-business. I'm sure empathy would have been something someone like Hitler would have liked to have had completely eradicated, from his Nazi killing-machine. And the replicant obsessions Tyrell speaks of in the film, might be the obsession (or virtue) to become more humane, ultimately human. A terrible obsession, that may require the retirement of the detuned replicant in question? Or the crime of wanting more, than Tyrell is willing (or morally-capable, or technologically) in granting? The child-like behavior is something Rutger Hauer brought to his role, I believe. And Daryl Hannah followed suit, because they were like 'two-peas in-a-pod' on/off-set (Rutger basically was her mentor on the film). I believe the idea was that he (or the Nexus-6) hadn't had enough time with their 4-year lifespan to develop an adult-like/balanced mentally. I think it works, & makes Rutger's character more interesting. Also done with the blessing of Ridley; however, it also does borderline on a psychopathic line of conversation, too. So there is a duality to that as well, demonstrated in the scene with Chew. Leon is an idiot, also a brute, & Zhora seems just like a regular run-of-the-mill stripper, in conversation. And then we have Roy, & Pris baby-talking with each other in toy-land (I wouldn't be surprised if that continued off-set, with those two), also J.F, which is almost seemingly required when speaking to him, LOL. So yes, Roy, Pris, Leon, even J.F; we see child-like behavior. And with Zhora ...didn't see it. Something Rutger did, whether or not there was a clear-consensus on that; during filming, among the Nexus-6 actors/actresses is not known (another super question to ask of Ridley). Although, we can count Daryl in on that (likely Brion, too). Who knows, maybe J.F. is also responsible for that child-like behavior? I found it's somewhat vaguely implied, that he has something to do with what's in their head. I like to believe the replicant motive is more complex than simply 'not fair'; although, still a valid portion/genesis of their gripe. Maybe it all ties back to why Phillp K. Dick wrote the original story BR was based-on, & where the concept initially came from (a non-human, human-being ... the screams of children keep me awake at night)? A fun question to ask is ...who in the film would you give that line to? And who are the (or their) children? I don't figure it was by accident that the replicants happen to lack empathy, but that is simply my own opinion. There is some intent there, to prevent the replicants from having (or developing) empathy ...certainly the test is one indicator of that, at least to me it is. Then again, much has been left so ambiguous that ...it's anyone's guess; useless we get something from the boss. Interruption of the film(s), is something that usually evolves overtime, & it has many times for me over the years. And of course, what makes the film(s) so much fun to be a fan of. Ridley has made a Private Dick outta us all, to some degree, LOL. Thanks liv_e_licious72. ^_^ Private Dick Sawa:)

@Sawa My apologies- I just realized I directed my last post @ the wrong person. Yes, Ridley leaves so much for us to think on. Your statement about Hitler is right on- the world would be a different place had he gotten that wish. @ All the Scified Members I may not post much but I enjoy reading all your comments, don't have any friends that like to contemplate character development and such. So many are passive watchers, looking for the chase or fight scenes or just graphics. Its great to finally be able to discuss the storylines and [i]why[/i] a scene works, what implied issues could be brought to light etc... Thanks to everyone who's shared their thoughts with me. :)

[center][/center]Apologizes aren't necessary, but I'm happy you caught the discrepancy. And I will leave you with several closing deep-thoughts, LOL. I am always willing to discuss the film; at length, whenever time permits. And I have very little ego to bruise. I find discussion with others, even those that have quite variant viewpoints; usually helps to expand my own understanding of the film ("The Final Cut"). One-thing to also flag, is that Rachel failed the empathy test, & she had been gifted with memories of an adult woman. Was Tyrell's human niece without empathy, too (source of Rachel's memories/life-experiences)? And what about Deckard? I find he does demonstrate a lack of empathy as well, throughout the film. Although, this could also be interpreted as he was just doing his job (shooting a unarmed rep-woman in the back, from a distance), or was simply over-passionate (forcing a distraught Rachel into a sexual-situation, when she attempts to leave). The idea that Rachel, & Deckard didn't have time to develop an adult-like mentality ...doesn't quite apply to them. So why would they lack empathy? Is it for a different reason than the Nexus-6? Or is it they all (regardless of model) just come without empathy, outta-the-box? It did take more questions than usual to flag Rachel as being without empathy. So there is some difference, between the Nexus-6 versus the new experimental models (Nexus-7). The difference in knowing what one is versus not knowing, & having memories of an actual human; however, still both without the ability to empathize. I don't dismiss the possibility that both models could develop the ability to empathize, but maybe under different conditions from model-2-model (Nexus-7, maybe once they aware of what they really are). Questions, LOL. I think Rutger's child-like/psycho-talk, & his own reasoning for it; is likely inconsistent with Ridley's own motives. However, I believe Ridley allowed that liberty because it was interesting, & would make for a better performance. Secondly, Ridley at that time was not incredibly interested in micro-directing the actors/actresses, in regards to helping them expand their roles further. Combined with the fact, Ridley got so far behind schedule; it is likely, he was quite open to suggestions to best capture scenes (dramatically, with the right-vibe, as quickly as possible), without much deep-thought, or fleshed-out consideration. And that was certainly the case (on the last day of shooting), with Rutger improvising his own dying-speech. All risks, & liberties that fortunately worked (to entertain), when it was finally cut together; although, some not exactly consistent (or coherent) throughout the film(s), upon deep-examination. Also, one another thing to note ...Ridley has stated that a replicant is essentially a human-being. Nonetheless, they are still compared, or referred to as a machine: [b]Deckard[/b]: Replicants are like any other machine. They're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem. Is Deckard just plain wrong to state that? Does he not know what a replicant really is? Or was that line something that just got by someone, in the editing-process? 'Any other machine' implies they are also machine. I wonder what kind of machine? Certainly not an android, & as officially stated by Ridley. The human body can be considered a machine ...is that what Deckard means by machine? Do the replicants possess some-level of incredibly hi-tech machinery within? This is something that is hopefully addressed clearly, in the sequel. I do believe by leaving this all ambiguous helped to not to date the film, & to some degree helps the audience have some idea (or ground) what a replicant might be 'like' in concept. However, somewhat poorly executed (or simply a continuity issue), in that it causes confusion for those who could understand; nevertheless, the concept of a type of human clone was quite over-advanced, for a general audience of 1982. Overall, I believe the mysterious-vibe of what a replicant could be, ended-up being more important than what they actually were (if someone was to detail complete specifics). Thanks liv_e_licious72. ^_^ S:)

@ Sawa I love your train of thought- (* It did take more questions than usual to flag Rachel as being without empathy. Was Tyrell's human niece without empathy, too (source of Rachel's memories/life-experiences)? And what about Deckard? I find he does demonstrate a lack of empathy as well, throughout the film. Although, this could also be interpreted as he was just doing his job (shooting a unarmed rep-woman in the back, from a distance), or was simply over-passionate (forcing a distraught Rachel into a sexual-situation, when she attempts to leave). The idea that Rachel, & Deckard didn't have time to develop an adult-like mentality ...doesn't quite apply to them. So why would they lack empathy? Is it for a different reason than the Nexus-6? Or is it they all (regardless of model) just come without empathy, outta-the-box? So there is some difference, between the Nexus-6 versus the new experimental models (Nexus-7). The difference in knowing what one is versus not knowing, & having memories of an actual human.*) The other thing about empathy is it'a almost alway learned thru the bonds we make with other people. Rachel and Deckard have human memories and [i]working[/i] relationships with their bosses but nothing personal where needs and feelings could be expressed, until they meet eachother.- random childhood memories are helpful but to be more affective (replicants to seem more empathetic) Tyrell would have needed to use [u] all [/u] the developmental memories from infant up to like 10 years. There's no telling which lessons a child absorbed or rejected, not to mention the reasons why they were absorbed or rejected. Some young children seem naturally loving and sensitive to peoples moods and feelings- others not so much (check out 2011 film "[u] We Need To Talk About Kevin [/u]” [music track was poorly chosen but still a striking film]) The world is full of people with bonding issues. How many of us would fail the empathy test? - unwanted pregnancies - postpartum depression - not to mention all the other bad choices and vices which disrupt that early developmental bonding in children. Surprised there aren’t more Kevin’s in the world.

[center][img]http://s27.postimg.org/e724ycnxv/airgearhappy.gif [/img] U love my train of thought? Thank-you! [/center] I believe that's exactly part of the point Ridley was attempting to make there (as in it could be you, & unfortunately it is). Yes, unwanted pregnancies that result in abortion, particularly. Prior to the more recent acceptance of birth control pills throughout Asia; it was not uncommon for a young woman to use abortion as a method of control, regularly. Or would one step on a spider? Does one value, & respect all life on this planet, or only according to their own preferences/societies laws? I agree, there is likely few that would pass a strict empathy test, with flying colors. Thanks liv_e_licious72. ^_^ S:)

This is a cool topic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Leon and Roy both say at some points in the film "How does it feel to live in fear?" to Deckard. Was fear something programed into them to keep them behaved or did they discover fear after they "woke up" or became more self aware because they realized how they were being treated. The replicants seemed to enjoy scaring people through out the film.I got the feeling Pris sorta scared Sebastian while she was flirting with him in front of Roy. Roy & Leon definitely scared Chew in the eye shop. Zhora seemed evilly confident when she was strangling Deckard. Leon,just before Rachel bulls eyed him, enjoyed scaring Deckard. Deckard also got schooled during most of the end scene fight. Its almost like they were seeking revenge on someone who had bullied them when they had the opportunity to scare them. I'm not sure,but I see it as a consistent thread in regards to there characters. I'm sorta convinced there seemed to be more to why they liked to scare people because they became aware.

@djrees56 We have to remember the mindset of the people that made the replicants and those that buy them. Replicants are simply a commodity. I imagine the first year or so, replicants are very easy to control, almost exactly like robots but eventually comes a point where they will notice the differences- the relaxed ease in the way humans interact with eachother, joking around. Imagine the scene= the first time a replicant tried to copy their behavior and "buddy up" to a human! Replicants would also eventually notice which humans have more rank= Imagine the first time a replicant refused an order or disrespected a human in front of his superior! I'm guessing that by the end of a replicants second year, all they know is bullying, intimidation and violence to keep them in their place. It is no surprise that they'd want to feed humans some of that same medicine.

[center][/center] I don't believe they were pre-made to fear; especially, if what Bryant describes about their design, & abilities, is true. [b]Bryant[/b]: They were designed to copy human beings in every way except their emotions. The designers reckoned that after a few years they might develop their own emotional responses. You know, hate, love, fear, anger, envy. So they built in a fail-safe device. ...& the fail-safe is contradictory to what Tyrell explains to Roy. [b]Tyrell[/b]: But, uh, this-- all of this is academic. You were made as well as we could make you. Also, maybe add empathy to Bryant's list. I wonder if they put the 'machine' on any of the escaped Nexus-6 ...which ones would have passed? [b]Holden[/b]: Reaction-time is a factor in this, so please pay attention. Now, answer as quickly as you can. With the reaction-time being a factor, replicants get hung-up on likely several of these hypothetical scenarios they are questioned on. They either cannot process a response, or it is possible they answer to fault, or possibly even not fast enough. It appears with the Nexus-6, they don't lack a reaction-time in something physical, violent, or even likely sexual ...& probably because that's where they've been optimized for maximum efficiency, also enhanced to be 'more human than human'. It could be when they do go into a situation, which would be similar to these empathy-test scenarios ...when they are fueled with emotions of anger, hate, fear ...etc. the turnout will likely always be a violent one. And as they cannot empathize enough (or at all) with whomever they do have some issue with, to not let their negative emotions (once they're spiritually aware/hate, anger, fear, & envy) overcome them, plus react physically to an extreme (squashing their enemy, like one would a bug). Without the ability to strongly empathize, one is unable to be merciful (or even respectful, in Leon's case with Chew). [b]Roy[/b]: We're no computers Sebastian, we're physical. This essay is somewhat interesting in regards to the emotion of envy; although, we know the eye at the beginning of the film, is Holden's: [url=http://scribble.com/uwi/br/tkarantinos.html]"Eyes in Bladerunner" by Thomas Karantinos[/url] Thanks djrees56. ^_^ S:)

@Sawa Maybe I should watch Chief Bryant scene again, didn't he say six replicants escaped from off world? Roy, Leon, Zhora, Pris and one died zapped by a security fence? Are we to believe Deckard was the 6th and re-imprinted to hunt down the others? Rachel was Tyrells pet project that stayed close but Deckard was the test subject put out there to see how he'd function (If this is so, did Roy save him from falling because he knew what Deckard was? It would change the whole meaning of his speach= "ignorance is bliss" not knowing you are a replicant and so he granted Deckard to live out the time he had left. I also keep getting the feeling that Deckard's Bladerunning "experience" belongs to Holden. (Just from the interview with Leon- I can see that Holden and Decards attitudes and mannerisms are very similar) Did anyone catch that?

[center][/center]Yes, Bryant tells Deckard there were six replicants in-all that escaped (3 male/3 female). And prior to "The Final Cut" one was 'fried' during all this, & then was modified to two (which would be one male + one female). This issue was always flagged as a continuity error, & why modified since. Although, it does leave a female, & male replicant character unaccounted for. Certainly it could be possible these replicants were not killed, but captured, & maybe re-propagated by Tyrell (used in this memory experiment of his). However, if the Deckard replicant was originally part of the Nexus-6 gang ...I'd think that Zhora would've had a much more hostile reaction, much sooner upon meeting (unless they never met prior or facial reconstruction). I don't believe there is anything solid, to indicate that Deckard was among the escapees (at the moment). Either-way, you do present a new path to explore when viewing the film. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8t9_081E9Y]This alternate ending[/url] almost falls into that line of thinking. Rachel comes-off seemingly knowing something more about 'the experiment' ...when she states, "You & I were made for each other." (Barbie & Ken), LOL. Maybe they really were 'made for each other'. =P In regard to Holden, remember the actor that played him, also did play the Deckard character (during screen-testing, & auditions). He even recommended to Ridley that Sean Young not be cast, LOL. So it's possible these Deckard mannerisms were directed to him prior to principal photography (maybe he carried them over to the Holden character). But then again ...why do we need see his 'eye' at the beginning of the film? Questions. At the end of the film, it appears to me that Roy is beginning to empathize. His reaction to Pris' corpse, gets that ball rolling. He does certainly extend mercy, after Deckard loses his grip, & simultaneously spits in his face. And reaction-time there was a factor ...he became human, right in that exact moment he grabbed, & pulled Deckard onto the roof. Undoubtedly for me, this is the best scene in the entire film. I believe if Roy hadn't run out of time, he'd likely become undetectable (if the 'machine' was put on him down the road). Thanks liv_e_licious72. ^_^ S:)